专访帕金斯威尔董事威廉·道齐
Interview with Bill Doerge, Principal of Perkins+Will
2014-09-09 14:10:33    | keywords: 建筑  设计  Perkins+Will  Bill  Doerge  访谈 
专访帕金斯威尔董事威廉·道齐
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时间:2014年8月28日丨地点:帕金斯威尔上海办公室

Date: August 28, 2014丨Place: Perkins+Will Shanghai Office

Bill Doerge(Bill) 90degree(90dg)


By 90degree


帕金斯威尔从公共机构建筑起家,第一个项目便是学校,从20世纪50年代开始深入医疗建筑领域,这是使得帕金斯威尔从众多建筑设计公司当中脱颖而出的因素之一。环顾芝加哥,许多诸如SOM、Perkins+Will(帕金斯威尔)等建筑设计公司几乎是在同一时间创立的(20世纪30年代)。当时,SOM建筑设计事务所主打商业建筑,Perkins+Will(帕金斯威尔)主打公共机构建筑,如教育、医疗、科研等。

之后,帕金斯威尔的业务触角从发达国家伸向了发展中国家。如今,在全球拓展的模式下,帕金斯威尔拥有24家办公室和1600名员工。“我们希望在新加坡、东欧等其他地方建立我们的办公室,继续在全球范围内拓展我们的品牌。我们希望在中国建立更多的办公室,强化Perkins+Will在中国的品牌。我们希望发展壮大。”帕金斯威尔董事威廉·道齐(Bill Doerge)在上海新办公室开幕酒会间歇接受90degree专访的时候道出,“我们的目标是在很短的时间内把上海办公室打造成与帕金斯威尔其他办公室一样,如同芝加哥、亚特兰大、纽约、洛杉矶、旧金山、伦敦、迪拜等地的办公室。它将针对中国市场的需要,实现全方位的功能运转,兑现对于可持续性、高品质设计、专业技能、建筑类型和社会责任等方面的承诺。”

One of things that separates Perkins+Will from a lot of other architecture firms is Perkins+Will’s focus on institutional market – the firm’s first project in 1935 was a school. Perkins+Will’s healthcare practice in architecture began in the 1950s’. If you look at Chicago, where Perkins+Will began its practice, there are a number of architecture firms in the city.  Two of the most prominent – SOM, Perkins+Will. – started at about the same time. SOM focused on the more commercial market; Perkins+Will focused on institutional market.  While the firm has developed recognized practices in commercial market, the institutional market sectors remain a significant part of the firm’s annual work.


Perkins+Will has expanded and continues to expand from the developed world into to the developing world. The firm is strategically expanding globally: today Perkins+Will has 24 offices with 1,600 people. ‘We are in London, Dubai, Sao Paolo and Shanghai – in addition to our North American offices; we want to be in Singapore, Eastern Europe, we want to be in other places, we want to expand our brand globally. We also want to be in more places in China and enhance Perkins+Will’s brand in China. We want to be bigger.’ Bill Doerge said when interviewed by 90degree at the Perkins+Will Shanghai New Office Grand Opening, ‘The goal is that in a very short period this office will become just like our other Perkins+Will offices - like Chicago, Atlanta, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, London, Dubai, etc. It will function on all levels appropriate for this market like the other offices; with the same commitment to sustainability, quality design, expertise, building types and social responsibility.’


↓ 90dg:Perkins+Will(帕金斯威尔)在中国的足迹遍及商业、医疗、教育、酒店、交通、综合体设施等领域,请谈一谈Perkins+Will(帕金斯威尔)未来在中国的发展计划。

Bill:帕金斯威尔是一家全球性的公司。自1963年起,便开始开展国际性的项目合作。在我们重视的市场,比如中国市场,重新进行自我定位,是我们发展战略的一部分。我们的发展计划,从短期和长期来看,都希望不只是单纯地将北美的设计引入中国,而是要在中国树立市场地位,在刚才提到的那些市场领域或业务领域彰显帕金斯威尔的品牌。我们的品牌特色是在近80年的设计服务过程中提炼出来的。我们的品牌不是单纯地将美国或加拿大的设计服务引入到中国,而是建立在设计品质、精英规划和对建筑类型的理解等基础之上的。我们正努力在中国发展自身的设计实力,希望能够达到我们在北美其他办公室的实力水平,同时仍能在适当的情况下将公司范围内的专业技能结合进来。就长期而言,我们的目标是在中国建立能够在各个层面彰显帕金斯威尔品牌的办公室,并能像我们在芝加哥、伦敦或纽约的办公室那样在市场领域里施展能力。现在,我们正在中国积极开展业务活动。这是我们今后十分重要的发展举措。回溯十五年前,我们获得了北京顺义国际学校的设计合同,开始进入中国市场。如今,我们在中国市场的种种举措正是这种合作的延续。现在到了帕金斯威尔厚积薄发,大力开拓中国市场的时候了。

↓ 90dg:请谈一谈上海自然博物馆这个项目,关于设计构思、方案和施工方面。

Bill:上海自然博物馆对我们而言是很重要的项目,因为它的设计十分独特,也为帕金斯威尔在中国市场树立知名度带来了良好的机遇。这个项目游离在我们传统的业务领域——医疗和教育——之外,却也同样地折射了我们对于所有项目做出的设计承诺。
我们几年前获得该项目的竞标成功。我们的解决方案利用多种方式与场地形成呼应,同时也抓住机遇展现与众不同的设计手法。我们没有把形形色色的元素都搬到地面以上,也没有浓墨重彩地强调建筑本身。在我们的设计当中,博物馆大部分实际上都位于地下。正如你所看到的那样,我们的设计将公园景观融入其中——下沉空间的中央有座花园,建筑仿佛从地面升腾起来。博物馆约三分之二的建筑位于地下,使我们有条件高效开发大面积的展览空间等。

设计还表达了对博物馆所展现的自然史的态度。从地壳构造仿板、绿化墙、下沉花园到细胞墙,每个外立面都呈现出自然史不同的一面。中央花园实际上折射了中国的传统园林设计 – 假山、流水与草木。我们设计里运用下沉花园解决了不少问题。下沉花园有利于搭建起博物馆与雕塑公园之间的联系,创造出一种将自然日照引入博物馆地下空间的方式,同时也为地下空间带来了光与景。所有的建筑元素浑然一体,相互呼应。倘若看看建筑正面的结构墙,就能体会到它所代表的自然史、自结构性和生命的演化。项目在设计施工过程中所面临的挑战之一是博物馆建筑下方规划了一条轨道线路。这就限制了我们地下室的标高。另外,由于建筑还有限高要求,所以博物馆上方和下方都有限制性要求。加上针对现代博物馆人流规定的种种其他要求,对设计都有影响,都要去应对和克服。自然博物馆对我们非常重要。从设计的角度看,它代表了我们在上海、中国乃至全球市场的一种极具象征性的主张。开馆后,就是这座建筑迎来收获的时候…… 这让我们感到很振奋。

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↓ 90dg:您最欣赏的建筑设计是什么样的?能结合几个例子描述么?

Bill:就风格而言,我没有特别欣赏的设计。我欣赏的是条理清晰、精心设计、简单干净的建筑。对我而言,设计始于有条不紊、协调兼顾的整体规划,要考虑如何组织建筑,考虑建筑功能之间如何产生联系,考虑建筑内部如何设置交通动线等等。以此为基础,才能生发出反映内部功能的建筑外形。当你看到我们设计的那些历经时间洗礼的建筑,如学校、医院、实验楼等,它们作为复杂高难的建筑,都无一例外地将规划作为驱动力,反映建筑内部的功能用途——无论是医院或是学校。我欣赏的是井然有条、目的明确的建筑。回过头看看密斯•凡•德罗设计的办公大厦,设计表达明晰清楚,一看便知是办公建筑。再看看当前的一些日本建筑师,譬如槙文彦、矶崎新、安藤忠雄等,以及中国的一批新兴建筑师,设计当中都有一定程度的清晰度和纯粹度。我不喜欢为了追求复杂造型而过于复杂的设计。就我们的自然博物馆来说,它就是它,展现自我。


我认为建筑不是纯粹的艺术形式,它必须反映功能性和场所性,同时呼应地域和历史特点,还要以纯艺术形式可能不会运用的方式呼应很多文化特征或者本土元素。 从建筑设计角度而言,我们还要应对诸如成本、预算、时间等方面的实际限制因素。建筑是要解决问题。必须要明确问题,解决问题,并以最有创意的方式落实解决方案。

↓ 90dg:设计的实现离不开技术的支持,大胆的设计需要寻求完美的技术解决方案,在这方面,可以分享下您的设计经验么?

Bill:技术有很多种定义。一种是技术能帮我们实现原本不可能实现的建筑设计。技术能帮我们打造越来越高的建筑和越来越新奇的外形。 但能做到并不意味着应当做。 我仍然认为,建筑设计一定要有目的性。“技术”是我们得以实现以往不一定能实现的种种事情。设计一栋建筑的时候,要考虑的不仅仅是建筑本身,还必须了解结构、机械系统、电气系统、技术应用等等。这的确是一个极富创意、全面统筹的过程,尤其是在面对规模更大更复杂的建筑项目的情况下。我们目前打造的是具有可控性的复杂环境。这又回到我之前说的,好的建筑就是设计得好、协调得好、具有整体性的解决方案,同时还要用得好,功能发挥得好,力求实现愿景目标。技术对设计有着巨大的影响。技术能让设计师不断挑战极限,甚至有时做些过头的设计或不当的尝试。但同样也能使我们为建筑赋予更多的灵感。技术对建筑有着巨大的影响——尤其是医院、实验楼和学校等一些最复杂的建筑。技术的发展让我们能够不断突破极限,设计更好的建筑。

另一种定义——技术影响的不仅是建筑的施工方式,还有建筑功能的布局方式——或是使用方式。在医院、科研楼和学校里,技术成了设施使用者之一。我们要为满足技术需要——医疗设备或实验室设备——而营造建筑。这方面所面临的难题在于,科技的发展日新月异,建筑要因此而承受种种新的负担。建筑还须应对未来的千变万化。设计之初,建筑一定要具有灵活性,并能根据我们并不完全清楚或了解的情况进行应变或调整,这一点十分重要。在设计一栋建筑时,考虑科技可能带来的变化有点像占卜。无论我们现在设计什么,没有三五年的时间都很难完全实现。而现有的大部分建筑——特别在考虑医疗设备或技术的情况下——可能很快就将改变。我们现在的设计可能五年之后就会过时。因此,建筑必须和不断发展的科技力量相互呼应。


↓ 90dg:对于中国的医疗设计,您持有怎样的看法?

Bill:医疗建筑在某种程度上属于本土产品,以本土文化、本土实践和本土的处事方式作为设计驱动力。我们在这里目睹了中国本土的人们对医疗态度的变化。其中一些影响因素包括收入、生活方式、健康意识提高和健康保健机会增多等等。医疗普遍成为了人们生活中更为重要的一部分。我们需要注意的是在医疗配套的设计过程中不要试图将美国的模式照搬到中国。

如何进行医院规划,了解医疗行业的发展趋势, 这些才是我们希望引入到中国医疗项目当中去的。之后,我们将以适应本地市场的方式施展我们的专业技能。我们力求在中国将自20世纪50年代起在医疗领域积累的丰富经验和专长,以及我们对医疗设计的认识和发展趋势融入到中国的项目当中。
我们想要优化系统,而非打破系统。我们的职责是勇于对已有的办法提出问题,探索是否有优化医疗体系的方式,而非打破医疗体系,或为变革而变革,亦或是试图在缺乏理性缘由的情况下操纵变革。

与此同时,这又回溯到帕金斯威尔对全球化所持的态度——我们可从中国的医疗设计项目当中汲取经验。面对人口规模及其他一系列其他因素,中国正在应对的问题也会成为西方国家将要应对的问题。在这里,我们既能传授专长,也能学习经验。无论是在中国、印度、中东、非洲,或是其他地方,我们运用到医疗设施设计当中的工作方式都简单如一。关键就是要了解当地文化、当地的医疗机构和自然特征。医疗并不仅仅是为治疗人们而打造的大型机器。它是和预防保健息息相关的。需要创造整体化的环境,用以支持医疗和提升医疗。我们(帕金斯威尔)需要不断地学习,以更为高效和配合的方式开展项目合作,同时带来新鲜的理念,不断突破创新,寻求发展进步。


【英文原稿(English Version)】


↓ 90dg:Perkins+Will completed numerous projects in China with broad range of types including commercial, healthcare, education, hospitality, transportation and mixed-use facilities. Can you talk about Perkins+Will’s development vision in China?

Bill:Perkins+Will is a global company which has been working internationally since 1963. Part of our growth strategy is to reposition ourselves in the market that we see important to our future like China. Our vision, in the long run and in the short run, is not to bring design services exclusively from North America but to establish a presence in China in which all of our market sectors or practice areas, the ones that you’ve listed in your question, reflect the brand of Perkins+Will. We have distinct brands in all of our practice areas which have evolved over our nearly 80 years of providing design services.  It’s a brand that is based on quality, expert planning and understanding building types and not just on the importation of design services from the US or Canada. We are developing a design capability in China that is equal to our North American office yet still be able to draw from the expertise we have within Perkins+Will when and as it’s appropriate.  In the long run, our goal is to develop a practice in China that represents Perkins+Will in every sense of our brand; that allows us to function in China markets just like our offices in Chicago, London, or New York operate in their markets.  Right now we are stepping up our activities in China.  It is a very important “next step” for us. It’s a continuation of what we began over15 years when we won the design contract for the International School of Beijing. Now it’s time to aggressively develop the Chinese practice of Perkins+Will.

↓ 90dg:We are interested in knowing more about the project - Shanghai Nature Museum. Can you talk about it in detail, such as the design scheme, construction?

Bill:Shanghai Nature Museum is an important project for us because of its unique design and the opportunity it presents in terms of name recognition for Perkins+Will in the market. While it is outside of our more traditional practice areas of healthcare and education, it does reflect our commitment to the design that we bring to all of our projects. This was a competition we won several years ago. I think our solution responded, in a number of ways, to the site and to the opportunity that presented in ways that other proposed solutions didn’t.  Rather than try to make a real strong architectural statement and put everything above ground, most of the museum in our design is actually below ground. Our design engaged the park in a way that you see in the design - the sunken courtyard and gardens in the middle and the way the building comes out of the site. About two thirds of the building is below ground and that allowed us to effectively develop the large volume spaces that the museum needs for its exhibitions.

The design also reflects an attitude toward the natural history that the museum represents. Each side or elevation represents a different aspect of natural history from tectonic plates, to the green wall, to the sunken garden, to the cell wall. The garden in the middle is actually a reflection of traditional Chinese garden design – the use of water, rocks, and plants. The sunken garden is used in our design to solve a couple of issues. It helps relate the museum to the park, it creates a way to get light down into the low levels of the museum, and it opens the lower levels to the gardens and daylight. It all ties together in a very holistic response. If you look at the structural wall on the front of the building, it represents natural history, self-structured and the evolution of life.

One of the challenges in designing and constructing the project is the subway line that is planned to run underneath the museum. This restricted how deep we could go with the basements. We also had height restrictions so the building was really restricted at the top and bottom. Various other requirements having to do with the movement of people in a modern museum were also influences on the design you see. The Museum is very important to us. It represents a very symbolic statement from a design stand of point in Shanghai, the China market and globally. Once it is opened, it will be received for what it is…and we are excited by that.

↓ 90dg:What’s your favorite architectural design? Can you talk about it with some examples?

Bill:I don’t have a particular design that I like in terms of style. What I do like are well-organized, well-designed, clean buildings. To me, a design starts from a well-organized and coordinated plan, how the building is organized, how the functions relate to one another, how circulation creates movement through the building. From this base, you are able to generate a form that reflects the function. If you look at a lot of our buildings over the years – schools, hospitals, labs. They are complex buildings driven by planning and reflecting the use of the building – whether it is a school or hospital. The architecture I like is clear and well-defined. Historically, look at what Mies van der Rohe did with office buildings. There’s clarity to his designs. They are office buildings. If you look at what some of the current Japanese architects are doing Fumihiko Maki, Isozaki, Tadao Ando and some of more recent Chinese architects, there’s certain clarity and pureness in their designs. I don’t like overly complicated design for the sake of complexity. If you look at the Nature Museum, it represents what it is about.

I don’t see architecture as a pure art form. It has to reflect function. It has to reflect place. It has to respond to where it is from. It has to respond to a lot of things locally and culturally in ways that perhaps pure art forms don’t. Architecturally, we also have to deal with restrictions such as cost, budget and time which are real factors in designing a building. Architecture is about problem solving. You have to define the problem, solve the problem, and implement your solution in a very creative way.

↓ 90dg:A bold design scheme cannot be realized without a good solution of technology. Can you talk about your experience in this aspect?

Bill:There are a lot of definitions of technology. On one hand, technology allows us to design buildings that are taller and in stranger shapes. However, just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I still believe that an architectural design has to have purpose. “Technology” allows us to do different things that we couldn’t necessarily do before. When we are designing a building, it’s not just about the architecture, it requires an understanding of structure, mechanical systems, electrical systems, technologies, etc. It really is a creative and comprehensive process, especially as buildings become bigger and more complex. We are creating complex environments that have to be controlled. So good architecture – going back to what I said I liked – is about well-designed, well-coordinated, total solution that works well, functions well, and still strives to achieve certain appropriate aspirations.

Technology is having a tremendous impact on design. It allows the designer to push the envelope and sometimes do things that they perhaps shouldn’t or try things that may be inappropriate. But it also allows us to do things that can make the buildings much more inspiring.  Technology has a tremendous impact on the buildings we design – especially with hospitals and labs and schools again which probably some of the most complex buildings we can design.  Advances in technology allows to push limits and design better buildings. Technology impacts not just the way a building is constructed but the way they function – or used. With hospitals, research buildings, and schools technology becomes a type users of the facility. We have to build a building to accommodate technology - medical equipment or lab equipment. The dilemma in this is that it puts new burdens on architecture - technology changes very quickly.

Buildings also have to be adaptable to future changes. It’s important to remember that buildings have to be flexible and be able to adapt to or adjust to circumstance we may not completely know or understand when beginning the design. If we think about designing a building with the potential for changes from technology, it’s a bit like being a fortune teller.  What we design now is not going to be fully realized for 3-5 years. A good amount of what exists now – especially when considering medical equipment or technologies – is most likely going to change in the near future. What we’re designing now may be obsolete or outmoded in five years. So, buildings have to be able to respond to evolving technology.

↓ 90dg:What’s your opinion on healthcare design in China?

Bill:To certain extent, healthcare is a local product driven by local culture, local practices and local ways of doing things. What we are now seeing in China with respect to healthcare is a change in the “local” attitude toward healthcare. Some of the factors influencing these attitude changes are income, lifestyle, an increase of awareness in health, and an increase in access to healthcare. Healthcare generally becoming a more important part of people’s lives. What we have to be careful of as global designers of healthcare facilities is that we don’t try to impose an American model on a Chinese system. What we want to bring to a healthcare project in China is the knowledge of how to plan hospitals and an understanding of trends in medical practices. We then have to apply this expertise in a way appropriate for the local market. What we are trying to do here in China is to fuse our expertise in healthcare - which is based on a very rich history in healthcare design that dates back to the 1950’s – and our understanding of what healthcare is and what it’s becoming with healthcare as it is practiced in China. We want to push the system but not break the system. It’s our job to question the ways things are done and see if there are ways that we can help improve the healthcare system without breaking it, without changing it for the sake of change, without trying to dictate the change without a rational reason.

At the same time - and this goes back to the global attitude that Perkins+Will has adopted - we can learn from healthcare here. Because of the size of population and a number of other factors, situations that you are dealing with here that the West is going to deal with in the near future. We can learn as much as we can educate. Ours is a simple approach that we apply to the design of healthcare facilities whether it’s China, India, the Middle East, Africa, or wherever. It’s about learning from local cultures, institutions and nature. Healthcare is more than creating big machines where people get treated. It’s about prevention and wellness. It’s about creating a total environment that supports and enhances healthcare. We (Perkins+Will) have to learn to play more effectively, be more responsive, and at the same time bring new ideas into the conversation and push the limits a little bit to see where we can go.


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