专访矶崎新+胡倩工作室合伙人胡倩
Interview with Hu Qian, Partner of ISOZAKI+HuQian Partners
2014-11-25 14:13:28    | keywords: Hu  Qian  ISOZAKI+HuQian  Partners  访谈 
专访矶崎新+胡倩工作室合伙人胡倩
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By 90degree
 
 
问:长期从事建筑设计行业,您的大部分设计灵感源自哪里?
Q: Where does your inspiration come from during your long-time architectural designing experience?
 
答:我毕业后几乎一直在矶崎新工作室至今已近20年,由于这是个人设计事务所,所以相对来说我的思维方式就会跟矶崎新老先生个人对建筑的思考、方向性的判断比较接近和一致。我在早稻田大学毕业,之后几个月先到了大型设计院,进去之后才一下子清晰了自己其实想要走的是工作室的路。当时矶崎新正好参与深圳文化中心的竞赛,这是我进入矶崎新工作室的契机,工作室需要一个有中国背景的设计师来跟中国方面沟通,最终竞赛中标了,工作室也认可我在工作中吃苦耐劳的品质,于是我就选择留在了矶崎新工作室。
 
矶崎新老先生是一位“怪才”,他对建筑的思维用他自己的话来说是“逆向的再逆向”,但这并不是说就返回到原点,而是会进入另外一个逻辑。这在我毕业当时是对流行建筑师和非主流建筑师之间的选择,虽然他的思维不是大众化的,但也不是非主流的,应当称之为另类的主流。我非常欣赏他的叛逆和对于建筑非常规的逻辑思考,同时也受到矶崎新先生的影响,使我对设计的灵感出发点最主要还是基于建筑的历史。选择进入这个工作室之后,做的每一个项目都是不同的解决方式,是历史+地域+人文+时代的结合,再加上在中国做建筑的一些特殊点之后的综合答案,但是思维方式和灵感的起源是一样的,都是从建筑的历史推到建筑的将来。
 
A: I have been working at Arata Isozaki & Associates for nearly 20 years after graduation, which is a personal design firm that my way of thinking on architecture has been relatively close to and consistent with Mr. Arata Isozaki’s individual thought and directive judgment. After my graduation from Waseda University, I firstly worked at a design institute with large scale, but a few months passed, quickly and clearly I found what fit me better is the working mode of a personal design studio, not of such a large scale institute. At the right time, Arata Isozaki & Associates just participated in the design competition of Shenzhen Cultural Center, and a designer with Chinese background is needed to do related communication. I caught this opportunity to work with Arata Isozaki’s team. Finally, the team won the competition. Then the recognition came to me for my hard-working, and I became a member of Arata Isozaki & Associates.
 
Mr. Arata Isozaki is a maverick genius, whose thought on architecture is “subversively reverse” in his own words, but it does not mean his thought turns back to the origin, which is just with another logic, neither of mainstream nor of non-mainstream. It is the so-called thought of unique mainstream on architecture influenced me most to be an architect like that. I really appreciate his rebelliousness and unconventionally logical thinking on architecture, which inspires me to do the design mainly based on the history of architecture. Each project of Arata Isozaki & Associates is designed with different solutions by comprehensive combination of history, region, humanity and time. Although there are some specific points in architectural design field in China, the basic way of thinking and inspiration still abide by the history and future development of architecture.
 
问:在矶崎新+胡倩工作室完成的这些项目中,令您印象最为深刻的是哪个项目?为什么?
Q: Among the projects of ISOZAKI+HuQian Partners, which impressed you mostly? Why?
 
答:首先是我入行的第一个项目——深圳文化中心,这也是我进入矶崎新工作室的一个契机。做这个项目的时候年轻,经验也不足,而且是在日本遥控,责任很多都由公司承担,我主要的工作是负责沟通和设计制图的体力活,所以当时工作时间每天超过10多小时也觉得压力不是特别大,相对来说是痛并快乐着的。
 
另外一个是天津泰达经济技术开发区20周年的纪念雕塑,这个项目也是2000年初期时在日本负责并以出差现场的方式完成的。最终这个项目成功落地,让我印象深刻。这是个50米高铁铸的建筑雕塑,但在设计后没有一家大型钢铁公司愿意承接施工。我在网上找到江阴的一些小型加工厂是做特铸品的,于是我就从日本回来专程去江阴附近一家家找,后来终于有一家厂愿意做,钳接工很多是女工,而且完成度也非常高。那个项目让我觉得中国建筑很有希望,建筑艺术有生存的空间和完成的能力。但等真的2004年回来之后,才发现实际并非如此,也许是这十年做好建筑的大环境反而倒退了。这个项目最终得了“鲁班奖”,因为它不是一个真正意义上的建筑,所以我们对它的宣传很少,但是它在我心里的地位是很高的。

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还有一个文化公建项目是北京中央美院美术馆,从2003年设计开始到2008年竣工整整六年的时间。在这个项目中,业主完全尊重设计师的设计,又有把控施工队的能力。最终能够做下来,最大的力量都来自于业主,这是我在中国到现在做的项目中觉得是最完美的,同时整个建设队伍又是最正常状态的,即业主尊重建筑师,建筑师和施工队都尽全力对业主负责,可惜的是这种最正常的状态在之后的项目中少之又少。

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近年相对满意的项目当属上海朱家角的水乐堂,这是和音乐家谭盾合作的项目,在保护历史水乡风貌的前提下,将老民居改建成剧场,改建后的建筑是观众厅,是舞台,同时也是乐器,将建筑是凝固的音乐之理念充分表现了出来,如果施工质量能有保证,则更完美了。

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A: The first project I formally participated into after graduation was Shenzhen Cultural Center, which was also an opportunity for me to be a member of Arata Isozaki & Associates. At that time, I was just a young entrant with little experience, and it was a project under remote control in Japan, so what I could basically do was communication and graphic design, which required me to work more than 10 hours each day, but for me, it was relatively a bitter sweet period when I did not feel much stressful.
 
Another project in the early 2000 much impressed me was the Memorial Sculpture for 20th Anniversary of TEDA Economic and Technological Development Zone in Tianjin, also a project mostly with remote control. It was a “Luban Award” winning project without much propaganda for it was not a real sense of architecture, but absolutely important in my own heart. Actually, it was designed as a huge iron-casting building sculpture with altitude of 50 meters, but there was not a major steel company willing to undertake its construction. Finally, by Internet, I found some small iron-casting factories in Jiangyin, China, so I came back from Japan to visit them one by one; ultimately, one of the factories was willing to do the sculpture construction, in which many qualified employees are female but with high working efficiency. In this process, I thought the prospect of architecture industry would be bright in China for its large development space and strong practical ability of architectural art. However, when I really returned back to work in China in 2004, I found it was not as easy as I thought to develop architecture industry here. Perhaps the public pursuit of doing excellence in architecture contrarily led to its backward in that past decade.
 
And one more project I would like to talk about is CAFA Art Museum in Beijing, of which the design started in 2003, and construction completed in 2008. During the six years, design programs from architects were fully respected by the project owner, who also did well cooperation and coordination with architects and construction team to make the process perfectly smooth. The owner played vitally important role in this project, and the construction also performed well with best working status I rarely met in the following projects.
 
In recent years, I am relatively satisfied with the project Shui-Le-Tang Music Theater at Zhujiajiao, Shanghai, a cooperative project with the musician Tan Dun. Basically, it is a renovation project to change an ancient folk house into a comprehensive theater facility under the premise of preserving the native historic context. Meanwhile, the brand-new theater will become an instrument to perfectly present the architecture as a kind of solid music if the construction quality can be guaranteed.
 
问:您觉得现在建筑行业存在一些什么问题?行业未来的趋势又会是怎样的?
Q: What do you think are recent problems in the architecture industry? How about the future trend of it?
 
答:这10年来,建筑行业变得很浮躁。建筑是由业主、设计师、施工队、监理公司四方的合作努力才能完成的。设计师再尽力也代替不了其它方的工作,合作得好,各方尽全力才能有优质的建筑落地,但这种合作目前越来越困难。各方面尽不了最大限度的努力,同时各方间的工作连接也存在断层,这也是让我感到绝望的地方。另外作为境外工作室需要国内设计院在施工图和工程专业上的配合,而设计院在这10年,也已不是我2004年前看到的设计院。当时在做深圳项目的时候,业主要求设计院和境外设计师组成一个现场工作室在现场工作,这在当时还是能做到的,而现在因为各种原因已几乎没有可能。此外,国内设计院配合特别弱的是结构这一块,这不是个人能力问题,而是整个设计体制的问题。建筑的base是结构,结构需要和建筑不断地配合,随时演算,才能整合成最终的一体。但是现在的结构专业做不到,因为体制让工程师不可能在一个项目上花费太多的时间,反复研究。而让我更不能接受的是招投标书的无奈。施工方、厂家在同意中标书内容的前提下中标,但之后依然可以在不经设计师同意的情况下不按招标书要求施工,且很多变更是经业主单方面同意的,所以就导致招标书没有什么真正的意义。“后房地产”时代一旦到来,设计行业将面临洗牌,根据在日本时的经验,行业未来的趋势就是大型设计院再合并,越做越大、人越来越多,以提高模式化设计效率参与竞争;而小型的个人事务所只有真正优秀的才能存活下来。我个人还是愿意看到“后房地产”时代的,希望有更多Architectural的出现,这个社会Building跟Architectural必须是共存的。
 
A: In recent 10 years, the architecture industry becomes very impetuous. An architectural project should be mainly completed by well collaboration between the client, architects, construction team and the supervision company; after all, despite of making every effort, architects could not do everything in a project. Thus, well collaboration is especially important. However, what make me very disappointed is such collaboration currently seems more and more difficult, faults frequently coming out in the collaboration of a project. In addition, as a foreign architectural design firm, we need the coordination on construction drawing and engineering by domestic design institutes, whose working mode is totally different and much less active than it was 10 years ago. Actually, the base of architectural design is structure in construction with immediate calculation, in which cooperation of the design institute is necessarily needed. In 2004, I remembered, when I was handling related issues of the project Shenzhen Cultural Center, the client asked the domestic design institute to work on site with foreign architectural design team to deal with any problem immediately, which is now almost impossible to be in practice for no engineer would spend too much time in only one project under recent working mode. So I think working mode of domestic institutes nowadays is much problematic. Moreover, the ineffectiveness of project biding document is much more unacceptable to me. The construction team and relative parties could surprisingly do the project construction beyond the content of biding document without any permission by architects, just approved by the client in most cases, which make the biding document exist in name only. In accordance with my experience in Japan, the architectural design industry will be faced with a reshuffle once “post-industrial era of real estate” comes. As a result, design institutes with large scale will be remerged as much larger ones with much more employees to achieve highly efficient modularization design and stronger competitiveness; on the contrary, for the small personal design firms, only the truly outstanding ones could be able to survive. Individually speaking, I would like to see “post-industrial era of real estate” comes with much more “Architectural” in that the building of our society should be coexisted with “Architectural”.
 
问:作为一名女性建筑设计师,您认为工作中最大的挑战是什么?您认为女性所特有的敏感及审美观对您的设计工作带来了哪些帮助?
Q: As a female architect, what do you think is the greatest challenge at work? While what advantages do you take from the specific sensitivity and aesthetic view of female at work?
 
答:从业的20年中,前面10年主要是对矶崎新主创项目的落实,性别有时候也会把事情搞复杂,我不想把自己搞得很女性,希望保持一种中性的状态。女性建筑师在项目初期可能会有一点优势,给人以女强人的感觉,但是建筑到最后的各种决定还是跟经济相关,这个就很现实,女性反而会弱势。尤其建筑师在工地现场的时候,要有一定的气场和气势,这个跟你的性别和外表都会有关系。所以优势只在前半部分,其他还是要尽量男性化老成化。我一开始选择做建筑可能是跟我的成长环境有关,我从小就觉得男人的事情自己都能做,所以也是刻意地选择了进入男人的行业。很多时候,建筑是很serious的,不会因为你是女人就受到特别的待遇,相反你可能需要付出更多。
 
A: With 20 years’ working experience as an architect, I mainly did the basic jobs of executive implement for Mr. Arata Isozaki’s creative projects in the first 10 years. Sometimes, gender issues may make things complicated, so, rather than keeping very feminine, I prefer myself to be neutral. Perhaps female architects would get a little advantage at the beginning of a project, reflecting a sense of iron lady; but such advantage would be cruelly disadvantaged when female architects make final decisions related to financial benefits in the late period of a project. Also, a female architect should be aggressive with certain strength on the construction site, which to some extent may depend on one’s gender and appearance. Therefore, a female architect should try to be man-like and steady most time at work. Probably my growth environment influenced me to be an architect, and from my childhood, I always think that I am competent to all the jobs logically fit for male. In many cases, architecture is very serious, which would not favor you more as you are a woman; even you may need to do more efforts than a man.
 
问:您最欣赏的建筑设计是什么样的?
Q: What’s your favorite architectural design?
 
答:我一如既往地推崇和欣赏的也是最临近的还是矶崎新的作品,矶崎新一直以来要做的是大建筑(Architecture)。跟着他20年之久,当中有很多人会离开,我能一直坚持下来的原因,也是因为他有叛逆的思维,这除了是天才之外,还需要很多建筑的大背景和各方知识层面来扩充,随着时代发展他会不断的推出新的思维吸引到我。同时日本还有很多优秀的建筑师,比如说SANAA的妹岛和西泽,特别是西泽。对于一些真正触动你心灵的、空间和环境相结合的建筑设计,我还是会非常地欣赏和喜欢。而且我发现在普利兹克奖之后,SANAA的“罗浮宫博物馆”朗斯分馆项目也开始跟大建筑相关了。大建筑是影响城市、文化、人的生活方式的建筑。这个项目改变了卢浮宫的展示方式,是引领艺术界的重大改变。对此我由衷欣赏和赞叹。当然我也会继续坚持以大建筑的思维来思考问题。
 
A: I have always been respecting and admiring Mr. Arata Isozaki 's design works which influenced me most. Mr. Arata Isozaki insists on large-scale architecture designing all the time, and he incessantly pushes out new design thoughts which always attract me much with his extremely rich knowledge and experience on architecture. Working in the company for 20 years, I have seen many employees come and leave, but why I still persist in staying here is that I found I can always learn much from Mr. Arata Isozaki with his reverse and forward thinking. Meanwhile, in Japan, there are many other excellent architects, such as Kazuyo Sejima and Ryue Nishizawa in SANAA, especially Ryue Nishizawa, whose works really touch my heart, with perfect combination of space and environment. And I found that SANAA's works trend to be related with large-scale architecture after their winning of Pritzker Prize, for example, the Lens Branch of “Louvre Museum”. Large-scale architecture is a kind architecture influences on the development of cities, cultures and lifestyles. The project Lens Branch of “Louvre Museum” changes Louvre's traditional exhibition mode, which is a major leading change in the Art World, and to which I would like to show my sincere appreciation and admiration. For myself, of course, I will continuously adhere to thinking with the thought of large-scale architecture. 
 
问:您从事建筑设计与项目管理近20年,能否简要分享一下您的从业之路?您认为建筑设计为您带来了什么?
Q: We know that you are with approx. 20 years of experience in the design and project management. Could you share some short stories about the past 20 years’ professional career? And what does your career bring you? Happiness? Enjoyment? Or others?
 
答:从经验上来讲,最关键的是一开始你就要了解Building和Architecture的不同。Building承担着文明发展的使命,Architecture则更多文化的责任,选择哪个范畴将是完全不同的职业道路,这里要提醒的是,选择Architecture之路是有收入风险的,和艺术家一样也许将来穷困潦倒。我更多的经验是来自于矶崎新先生对建筑的推动和态度,态度尤其重要,它决定你是否能在Architecture的道路上坚持下去。矶崎新的另一个特殊处是建筑设计过程中和艺术的密切联系,因此这20年我也得机会协助矶崎新做了大量“建筑之外”的工作,版画、丝网、家具及其它艺术产品的制作,以及和跟各类音乐家、艺术家配合设计等,都是在老先生工作室的这个起点开始接触到的,建筑和艺术本来就是不可分的。20年来我主要的工作经验是在中国,在欧洲、日本也有一些。但是在中国的确会痛苦的发现以前可以做到的,或在别国可以做到的事情,在这里却经常做不到。你付出120%,可能只有10%的收获,但是你还是要去做,这个跟你的建筑态度有关。这点上在中国工作室的日本设计师比我更痛苦,因为无论如何这是我的国家,我还是希望看到她的好,所以我还在坚持,愿意去付出两倍甚至三倍的努力。
 
A: According to my personal experience, one needs to understand the distinction between “Building” and “Architecture” at the beginning. “Building” is what undertakes the mission of civilization development, while “Architecture” is much related to culture. I would like to remind new entrants here that the two are with completely different career paths, of which the career of “Architecture” may lead income risk with impoverished future just as artists. Much of my experience on it comes from Mr. Arata Isozaki’s promotion and attitudes towards “Architecture”. The personal attitude of a new entrant is particularly important, which determines whether you could insistently engage in the “Architecture”. Another specialty I think much valuable to have learnt from Mr. Arata Isozaki is the close combination of art and architectural design. With 20 years working experience in Arata Isozaki & Associates, I had a lot of opportunities to assist Mr. Arata Isozaki to do many jobs beyond architectural design, such as printmaking, silk screen producing, also furniture and other art products designing, and during the process, I was honored to work with all kinds of musicians and artists. Thus I feel deeply that architecture and art are always inseparable. In the past 20 years, I mainly worked in China, Europe and Japan. However, some specificities in this field in China make me feel a little exhausted and confounded. Maybe I pay 120% effort, only 10% return I would gain, but with attitudes towards “Architecture”, I should insist on it. Relatively speaking, I would like to try my best to do “Architecture” in China, in any case I hope “Architecture” will develop better in my homeland.
 
 
个人简介
胡倩女士,日本一级注册建筑师,早年毕业于日本早稻田大学理工部建筑学专业,现任矶崎新+胡倩工作室合伙人,多年跟随日本著名建筑大师矶崎新老先生,参与众多大型项目的创作,深受其另类主流建筑设计思想的影响,在建筑与艺术、文化的融合性创作层面拥有深厚造诣,积极向社会传递对于文化建筑的深刻见解。其代表作品包括:深圳文化中心、南京国际会展中心、北京中国美术学院现代美术馆、上海喜玛拉雅中心、上海朱家角水乐堂等。
 
Profile
Hu Qian, registed architect in Japan, graduated from Waseda University with Master’s Degree in Architecture in her early years, is now the partner of ISOZAKI+HuQian Partners. She has been worked with famous Japanese architect Mr. Arata Isozaki for many years, participating into many large-scale projects. Influenced by Mr. Arata Isozaki’s thought of unique mainstream on architecture, Hu Qian is well qualified for the architectural design integrated with art and culture. She also actively shares her profound insights on cultural architecture with public. Her representative works include Shenzhen Cultural Center, Nanjing International Convention Centre, CAFA Art Museum in Beijing, Shanghai Himalayas Center and Zhujiajiao Shui-Le-Tang Music Theater in Shanghai.

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