人文与自然相结合的永续发展-专访杨鸿勋院士
Interview with Academician Yang Hongxun
2014-12-24 14:28:23    | keywords: 杨鸿勋  访谈  梁思成  古建筑  建筑史  月牙楼 
人文与自然相结合的永续发展-专访杨鸿勋院士
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问:您最近在忙什么呢?
Q: What are you recently busy with?
 
答:我的本职工作是科学研究,主要成果是著作,最近在写《中国建筑史》。我的老师梁思成先生及其他老前辈开创建筑史学科,当时他们写中国建筑史是参考西洋建筑史的写法,只是讲历史上有过什么样的建筑。这实际上只能叫“风格类型学建筑史”,严格来说不是真正讲发展演变的建筑史,而是静止的、孤立的、零散的建筑史料汇编。现在人们看到的《建筑史》基本上还是沿袭这种写法。
 
学术发展是人梯,我们后人是站在前辈学者的肩膀上继续攀登的。这就是说,后人要在前人研究的基础上有所前进,有所发现,新所创造,乃至修正前人不尽完善的学术路线。我们后人有责任继承前辈的事业,写出发展演变的动态建筑史。我在担任中国建筑史学分会理事长时,一再提倡大家朝这个方向努力。近年来,我这个想法终于得到海峡两岸同行们的认同。但是积重难返,一时还没有看到这样的建筑史问世。我现在的主要工作就是按照这一新观点写一本中国建筑史,书名叫《万世一系——中国建筑史(远古至清朝)》。
 
A: Recently I am writing a book about history of Chinese architecture, and actually my own work is scientific research on architecture, by which the relative books are produced as key achievements. Once, my teacher Professor Mr. Liang Sicheng created the subject of architectural history in China together with other respectable predecessors in this field at the right time when they wrote about the history of Chinese architecture with reference to the compiling style of Western architectural history, which just elaborates kinds of architecture appeared in different times of history,academically called “stylistic typology of architectural history” that compile static, isolated and scattered historical materials of architecture into a book, neglecting its evolution, while most relative books are followed such compilation. 
 
Academic development is like a human ladder, up of which we later generations are standing on the shoulders of predecessors and continue to climb. In other words, we should do some breakthroughs based on previous researches, and even amend imperfects of previous academic route. We must carry forward the work of scholars before us, to write about the dynamic evolution of architectural history, which I repeatedly advocated when I served as the president of Architectural History Chapter of CHINAASC. In recent years, I gradually get supports from cross-strait peers on this academic idea. But always ingrained ideas cannot be cast off overnight: as a result, it has not come out a work about the dynamic evolution of architectural history until now. Thus, major of my work now is to compile a book about that evolution, named Inheritance and Evolution - History of Chinese Architecture (From Ancient Times To Qing Dynasty).
 
问:可以谈一谈您作为梁思成助手的那段岁月么?
Q: Could you please talk about Professor Liang Sicheng according to your experience as an assistant to him?
 
答:1956年国务院发出“向科学进军”的号召,国家给国际著名科学家配备助手,我被国务院分配担任中国科学院技术科学部学部委员梁思成教授的助手。1956年春,我被分配到中国科学院作为梁思成的助手之初,梁先生是清华大学建筑系主任,住在清华,并在清华上班,所以我的上班地点也是清华建筑系。工作伊始,我主要是协助梁先生创立“建筑历史与理论研究室”,就设在建筑系里,我担任研究室秘书。梁先生的兼职很多,很少有时间从事学术研究工作,直至1959年他才提出要开展中国近代建筑史研究的课题,首先就近在北京调查交民巷的外国使馆建筑。由我安排三人为他做准备工作,一人收集文字材料,一人画图,一人照相。未久就停止工作了。后来,梁先生就没有建立过什么研究项目了。
 
梁师母林徽因先生去世之后,一天早上我到梁家,梁先生正在画图,我赶紧说:“我来画吧”。他说:“不用,我在给林先生设计墓碑,她生前我们有约定:谁先离去,活着的要亲自给离去的设计墓碑,连图都要亲自画”。对我说:“你来了正好,你看林先生的墓碑上写这四个头衔是不是太多了?”我看到他画的墓碑立面图上写的是“诗人、文学家、舞台美术家、建筑家——林徽因先生之墓”,我没有表态,他自己就修改了。
 
梁、林的感情是深厚的,一天早上我到梁家,见他还坐在床上,对我说:“昨天晚上一夜没睡,在想林先生。就坐起来背《长恨歌》!”。
 
我和梁先生同在一个工会小组过组织生活,我是工会小组长,所以我除了作为研究室秘书和梁先生助手要管理梁先生的研究工作方面的事以外,还要照顾他的生活。这样,我对梁先生的各方面都比较了解。
 
A: In 1956, I was assigned to be an assistant to Professor Liang Sicheng, a member of Technical Science Division of CAS to respond to the call of “march to science” issued by the State Council to provide assistants for internationally renowned scientists. Prof. Liang was also the dean of Department of Architecture in Tsinghua University when I began to work as his assistant in the spring of 1956. At that time, I was mainly responsible for assisting Prof. Liang to establish “Research Office on Architectural History and Theories”, of which I served as a secretary. Prof. Liang was always very busy with his daily work and did not have enough time to engage in academic researches, until 1959, the subject research on modern history of architecture in China was carried out by him with the first investigation of foreign embassy buildings at Jiaomin Lane in Beijing. I appointed three fellows to get preparations for his subject research - drawing, photographing and collecting written materials. However, shortly after our work carrying out, it was stopped, and Prof. Liang had not carried out any other subject researches since then.
 
One day after Liang’s wife Professor Lin Huiyin passed away, when I visited him, he was drawing something, and I hastened to ask: “May I help you?” He said: “No, thanks. I am designing the gravestone for Prof. Lin. We had promised each other: one should design and do the drawing of the gravestone in person for the other who passed away earlier.” Then he pointed the inscriptions “Tomb of Lin Huiyin, a poet, writer, stage artist and architect” on the drawing, and hesitantly asked me, “How do you think of the titles? It is too many?” I was moved by the two beloved and keep silent, while he also silently did some changes of the inscriptions himself.
 
Liang and Lin are really beloved to each other. One morning also after Prof. Lin passed away, Prof. Liang was still sitting on the bed when I arrived. He said to me, “I was missing Prof. Lin all last night, and sat up to recite Everlasting Regret!”
 
Once Prof. Liang and I took part into regular activities of the Party organization in the same labor union group, of which I was the leader, thus, I was also responsible for taking care of his life, including the academic researches I should assist him. Generally, I have a better understanding about Prof. Liang.
 
问:在您做过的众多项目中,哪一个给您的印象最深刻?这些项目背后都有哪些小故事,可以分享一两个么?
Q: Among a number of projects you’ve done, which impress you most? Any stories would you like to share with us?
 
答:我大学刚毕业,在建国十周年即1959年,政府决定在桂林七星岩月牙山下建一座大型风景建筑——“月牙楼”,作为“向党献礼”。要求在拔地而起的七星岩石山下建的这座建筑要与山相结合,难度是太大了。当时有五、六个方案,都是在山下孤零零站在那里,与山没有任何关系,有的像办公楼,有的为了生动而挑出几个阳台,就像公寓楼,领导不满意。这时我正带一个工作组在杭州做西湖风景区规划,接到领导的电报要我火速赶到桂林。抵达桂林才知道要我赶紧提出一个方案,明天早上就要评选。我工作通宵完成了一个方案,次日上午评选被选中。我的这个“月牙楼”设计有三层,虽然也只能是站在山脚下,但是由于把山石拿来一些摆在楼前做成一个自然式的外楼梯,看来就好像山脚从楼里伸了出来,也就是楼被嵌在山里,楼与山很有趣味地结合起来了。在楼落成之后,在月牙楼里召开了全国专家评议会,以梁思成、杨廷宝为首的专家与会。与月牙楼同时,我还设计了准备在七星岩旁小东江畔建造的“小东江画廊”(后来建成定名“桂林展览馆”),在会上,梁思成对我的这两个设计给予极高的评价,他说:“如果说鸿勋同志的月牙楼是我们解放后在民族形式创作道路上的一个形似阶段里程碑的话,那么他的小东江画廊就是神似阶段的一个代表作!”这对于当时二十几岁的我来说,在解放十年来众多大建筑师若干作品的比较之中,得到梁思成这样的评价,确实感到莫大的荣幸。
 
A: I would like to talk about the Crescent Building at the foot of Crescent Hill in Seven Star Cave Scenic Area in Guilin, which the related government planned to set up as a landscape building to be a gift for the decennial year of the Founding of PRC in 1959. It was really a challenge to make the building well integrated with the surrounding hillscape. As a result, none of several previous designs was satisfied because there was no combination with the surrounding: some looks like an office building, some like an apartment building. Then I was assigned to do one more design for that project when I was leading a working team to do a planning for West Lake Scenic Area in Hangzhou. I worked all night to complete the design as soon as I arrived in Guilin, so as to participate into the competition the next morning, and finally I won that competition. In the design of the three-floor Crescent Building, I made interestingly well integration between the building and its natural surrounding by outdoor stairs constructed of local rocks to achieve the embedment of the building into the hillscape. In addition, I also designed an art gallery building on the bank of Small Dongjiang River adjacent to Seven Star Cave Scenic Area, named Gallery of Small Dongjiang River (renamed “Guilin Exhibition Building” later). After completion of both buildings, the related national expert seminar led by Liang Sicheng and Yang Tingbao was held in Crescent Building. At the seminar, Prof. Liang gave the extremely high appraisal on the two designs of mine, he said: “If we regard the design of Crescent Building as a milestone of similarity in form on the creation of traditional architecture after Liberation, the Gallery of Small Dongjiang River should be a master work of similarity in spirit!” It was really my great honor to get such appraisal from Prof. Liang, especially at the time when I was just in my twenties. 
 
问:您对当下中国的景观设计行业持有怎样的看法?
Q: What do you think about today’s industry of landscape architecture in China?
 
答:首先是对“景观”的理解有问题,以致造成设计中忽视中国景观精髓的继承。现在中国的景观界,被一位留美归来的北大教授忽悠得思想混乱了。他宣称“景观”是西方的发明创造,中国不如人家。其实西方本来只是有所谓Garden(花园)和Park(树木园),而没有中国所谓的“园林”这个概念。西方学习了中国“园林”之后,才认识到“园林”不是简单地园艺学的种植花草树木,而应该是中国“园林”的时空艺术。开始他们把中国的这种“园林”叫做“Landscape Garden”——“景观花园”,进一步发展融汇东西方的园林成就,才形成今天的“景观学”(Landscaping)或曰“景观建筑学”(Landscape Architecture)。这就是说,现在世界范围内所说的“景观学”,是“中学为体,西学为用”的成果。怎么能说“景观”是西方创造的呢?
 
A: As for this question, I would like to correct the misunderstanding on the origin of “landscape” which results in the neglect of the essence of traditional Chinese landscape design. At present, a professor at Peking University who once studied in USA makes misleading declaration that “landscape design” was originally created in the West, and the landscape design in China is not so good as it in the West. In fact, the conception of “Landscape Garden” was originally born in China which achieved artistic integration of time and space, while the Westerners gradually learnt it not simply equal to their horticulture in “Garden” or “Park” and further developed that conception with achievements of the East and West, which shapes an early form of today’s “Landscape” or “Landscape Architecture”. That is to say, the “Landscape” known to all nowadays is actually an academic achievement that westerners originally learnt from China and did further improvement. Obviously, it is not so reasonable to say “landscape design” was originally created in the West.

问:对于城市、建筑、园林方面的教育,您有什么看法?有哪些需要坚持和改进的?
Q: Do you have any suggestions on nowadays education of urban design, architecture and landscape architecture? Anything need to be upheld or improved?
 
 
答:中国自古认为“衣、食、住是生活三要素”,城市、建筑、园林都是“住”的内涵,尽管有工程的问题,而其基本属性却是文化性质。所以中国在经营城市、建筑、园林方面有特殊的考虑。中国对于世界建筑的发展是做出过重大贡献的,而建筑教育中却不讲授给学生。以致学生普遍认为中国不如西方。
 
城市规划方面的教育,现在的问题是主要按照西方城市规划思想来讲,极少提到中国的传统。其实中国具有悠久的、独到的城市规划思想和城市建设经验,例如中国不但规划城市本身,而且基于“天人合一”理念,考虑城市与所在自然环境的关系;同时,还注重经营场所的文脉,这是西方规划所忽略的。应当在大学教育中予以改进。
 
建筑和园林作为文化的组成部分,应该多从中国传统文化的角度讲解,这样才能从根本上说明中国的突出成就。前面已经从景观学说明了中国对世界的贡献,建筑也同样是做出了重大贡献的。
 
中国对世界建筑发展所做出的贡献是全面的,这里,我列举结构学、建筑学和建筑材料三个主要方面举证说明:
 
结构学方面:
大约二百五十年前,在英国首先掀起的工业革命,促进了欧洲的工业化,从而引起城市化。西方资本主义工、商业的发展,使城市中心的地段寸土寸金,于是向建筑提出了往高空发展的社会需求——这是对西方传统建筑的极大挑战。按照西方承重墙支撑的建筑体系,由于自重太大,建造超高层很难实现。大约一百年前,美国建筑工程师著文声称,他之所以颠覆西方古典建筑承重墙体系,创造现代框架结构理论,是受到中国为代表的东方建筑木构架体系原理的启发。换句话说,人类第一座摩天楼在美国芝加哥拔地而起,是依照中国仿生学的木骨架承重,墙体作为围护的皮肉——“墙倒屋不塌”的构造原理的结果,也就是说,现代摩天楼的建筑成就,是“中学为体,西学为用”——东、西方建筑智慧融合的结晶。这是中国古典建筑在世界结构学方面的革命性贡献。
 
建筑学方面:
20世纪初叶,美国学者型建筑师弗兰克•劳艾德•莱特(Frank Llyod Wright),受到了中国两千多年前崇尚自然的先哲老子讲哲学“有”、“无”对立统一的启发,老子以建筑作比喻讲“有”、“无”对立统一说:“凿户、牖以为室,当其无,有室之用”,意思是:盖房子开门、窗,构成房间,因为其中有空间,所以才有实用价值。老子总结说:“‘有’之以为利,‘无’之以为用”——建筑体形(有)是物质依托;空间(无)才是实用功能。在建筑的体形与空间的对立统一中,空间是第一性的。本来西方传统建筑理念是把建筑看成是造型艺术,注重体形的美观,甚至只着眼于建筑立面的比例、权衡关系。建筑艺术,或曰建筑学(Architecture),被列为艺术门类的首位。老子的话使赖特开了窍,彻底抛弃了西方传统只重建筑造型的理念,而在空间关系的基础上、结合“墙倒屋不塌”灵活机动地与环境相配合的原理,提出了“有机建筑论”,从而引起“世界近代建筑革命”——奠定了现代建筑的理论基础;他本人被誉为现代建筑革命的先驱者。
 
建材方面:
中国不但在结构学和建筑学上对世界现代建筑的发展做出了重大的贡献,而且在建筑材料的发展方面也起到了积极的作用。20世纪70年代,日本农民家庭出身的首相田中角荣,是学工业与民用建筑的,上任后他提出建设新干线高速铁路的计划。高速机车过关,但是铁路的钢筋混凝土轨道枕木不耐海水腐蚀,强度骤减。为解决新干线铁道轨枕的抗酸、碱问题,曾得到中国至少在三国曹魏时期(220~265年)就有了的陶制品用植物油处理——有、无机材料相结合,以提高材料的物理与化学性能的启示,而创造出混凝土轨枕用有机的高分子材料环氧树脂养护的新技术,并进一步创造出在混凝土中掺进去有机添加剂等一系列做法。这一“有、无机材料结合”的新建材理论,引起了“世界建材革命”。
 
中国对世界建筑发展的贡献还不止于此,中国建筑遗产中最为宝贵的科学核心——人为环境与自然环境相统一的思想,对于环境危机的今天来说,更是亟待我们发掘的重要宝藏。高度文化内涵与高度生态内涵相融合、物质与精神统一功能场效应的堪舆,也就是风水,环境设计原理,正是未来生态建筑、生态城市,甚至如钱学森所提倡的更高层次的人文与自然相结合的永续发展的“山水城市”建设的指导方针。
 
A: Food, clothing and shelter are always the three basic elements of daily life in China from ancient times, and urban design, architecture and landscape architecture are all affiliated to the connotations of “shelter”, which are basically related to culture despite of some engineering issues included. Thus, special considerations are always taken into urban design, architecture and landscape architecture in China. Actually, China made significant contributions to the development of world architecture in the past, but few students majoring in architecture nowadays are well-educated about it in China, and misled to blindly worship the architecture in the West. 
 
As for the education of urban design, the ideas of urban planning in the West are widely inoculated in the class, while the local and traditional ideas are nearly neglected. In fact, our ancestors developed unique ideas of urban planning by well integration of cities and natural environments with a long history and full experience, which I think should be written into the textbook of urban design in university education.
 
As I mentioned above, the development of landscape architecture in ancient China is contributively valuable for it the world, and so is the development of architecture. They are both integral parts of traditional Chinese culture, which should be improved as a focal point of university education on architecture.
 
Following, I would like to further explain China's comprehensive contributions to the development of architecture in the world by three main aspects on structure, architecture and construction materials:
 
Structure:
The Industrial Revolution in UK stimulated industrialization and urbanization in the whole Europe about 250 years ago, and the fast development of industry and commerce made the land much more valuable in urban center, while it came out the popular needs to build high-res buildings, which was really a challenge for traditional Western architecture system that the main structure was supported by load bearing walls with too much weight the building itself. About 100 years ago, an American structural engineer analyzed in his thesis that he was inspired by Eastern architectural principles of timber frame system mainly represented by the buildings in China, and he subvert traditional Western bearing wall system and produce a brand new theory of modern frame structure. In other words, the first skyscraper erected in Chicago was theoretically supported by principles of timber frame system, which is the perfect integration of Eastern and Western architectural intelligence, showing revolutionary contribution of traditional Chinese architecture to the architectural structure study in the world.
 
Architecture:
Originally, traditional Western architectural concept took architecture as one of formative arts, focusing on the beauty of a building’s physical form, event on the proportion of the building façade, so that architecture was ranked as the most important of arts field. In the early 20th century, the American scholar-architect Frank Llyod Wright was influenced by ancient Chinese philosophy of architecture that elaborated space is primarily and organically valuable in a building with its utility functions and effective interactions with surroundings, while the building itself is just a physical form to support the existence of space. Finally, Wright completely put the traditional Western architectural concept away, and created the theory of organic architecture causing the “Architecture Revolution in Modern World”, which laid the theoretical foundation of modern architecture. Since then, Frank Llyod Wright himself has been known as a pioneer of modern architecture revolution.
 
Construction Materials:
In 1970s, the Japanese Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka launched a plan to construct Shinkansen high-speed railways. Despite of majoring in industrial and civil construction, Tanaka still faced a serious problem that reinforced concrete railway sleepers could not afford seawater corrosion and getting softened. Then the construction team learnt from the ancient Chinese method that pottery products was shaped by vegetable oil, making a conclusion that the combination of organic and inorganic materials can effectively improve the physical and chemical properties of materials, so that the problem have been perfectly solved by the new maintenance technology with organic macromolecule epoxy resin. The new theory of construction materials on the combination of organic and inorganic materials once caused “World Revolution of Construction Material”. 
 
In addition, the well integration of cultural and ecological connotations taken essence from traditional Chinese geomancy study will also be helpful to improve environment for today’s environmental crisis, to further create more sustainable eco-buildings and eco-cities, and to achieve culturally and naturally sustainable development in the future, which needs our continuous research.
 
问:请谈一谈全球经济环境下建筑设计行业发展的趋势及中国市场的发展趋势。
Q: What is your opinion on the development prospect of architectural industry in China and worldwide?
 
答:先说中国吧,我对中国建筑设计发展趋势还是很看好。回顾刚改革开放的时候,基本建设任务很重,所以建筑设计非常兴旺发达,很多刚毕业的建筑系学生就能做很大的设计,机会非常多,这些年工程项目比那个时候少了。作为域外很有名的伍兹贝格,他们有一百多年的历史了,在中国设计了不少作品,我非常欣赏他们在现代的新建筑里面把国际化和地域的传统相结合,这点非常好,这是个大趋势。地域性是极其重要的,把地域性作为公司创作的宗旨,非常好。并且他们也做出了一定的成绩,很多设计单位都来学习他们,有点进入领军的地位了,从总的建筑设计思潮来说,他们是把握了很前卫的建筑理念。从国际上看,也是开始在现代建筑中去寻求具有历史文化传统内涵的神韵,这是最高的评定标准。
 
A: The architectural industry in China is generally keeping an optimistic development trend. The industry was flourishingly developing at initial stages for reform and opening-up when the basic constructions were the main task of whole society and the new graduates majoring in architecture had many opportunities to do large-scale projects. Although there are relatively less opportunities for new graduates in recent years, the industry itself still possesses a prospective future. Personally I appreciate Woods Bagot’s avant-garde architectural concept that well integrate traditional Chinese and international elements in many of its modern projects in China. As a famous international design firm with a history over a hundred years, Woods Bagot always focus on regional and local elements in their creative design, which is respectable and deserve to be learnt from. Internationally speaking, it is also the highest evaluation criteria to evaluate a project if it is well integrate historical connotations of regional and traditional culture into modern architecture.
 
问:在现在经济比较低迷的环境下,您认为以上海为主的长三角区域未来的发展趋势是怎样的?
Q: How do you think about the development prospect of architectural industry in Yangtze River Delta Region, especially in Shanghai, under current circumstance of economic downturn?
 
答:建筑行业实际上是受制于经济的发展,长三角地区从战略眼光看,总的来说前途还是很好。上海现在发展得非常快,比如浦东。但这还是起步阶段,因为上海有根基,上海一百多年来是优先开埠的地区,开发很早,是被世界重视的大都市,所以未来还会有更好的前景。
 
A: Yeah, the architectural industry is actually subject to the development of economy. But from a strategic perspective, the industry is still developing with a prospective future in Yangtze River Delta Region. The development in Shanghai is keeping very fast, especially in Pudong, and there are limitless potentials of architectural industry in Shanghai, where is always regarded as an international metropolis with its unique geographical advantages. 
 
 
个人简介
杨鸿勋,1931年12月生,河北蟸县人。1955年毕业于清华大学建筑学系。毕业后组织分配到中国科学院,担任学部委员梁思成的助手及以梁思成为主任的建筑理论与历史研究室秘书;该室改属建筑工程部建筑科学研究院后,任园林研究组组长。曾任上海大学、日本京都大学等高校客座教授。现任联合国教科文组织顾问,俄罗斯建筑遗产科学院院士,中国建筑学会建筑史学分会理事长,中国社会科学院考古研究所研究员,世界营造学社筹备委员会主席。另聘为复旦大学兼职教授、同济大学顾问教授、华南理工大学顾问教授、华中科技大学兼职教授等。
 
Profile
Yang Hongxun was born in Li County of Hebei Province in December, 1931. In 1955, Yang graduated from the Department of Architecture of Tsinghua University and was assigned to Chinese Academy of Sciences to serve as an assistant of Liang Sicheng, a committee member of the Academic Divisions, and a secretary of the Research Office on Architectural History and Theories with Liang being the director. Yang was appointed as the leader of the gardening research team after the research office was reassigned to be under the administration of China Academy of Building Research under the Ministry of Works. Once a visiting professor at several colleges and universities like Shanghai University and Kyoto University, Yang serves as a counselor of UNESCO, an academician of Russian Academy of Architectural Heritage Sciences, the director-general of the architectural history chapter of Architectural Society of China, a researcher of the Archeological Institute of Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, the chairman of the organizing committee of WSYS. In addition, Yang has been invited to be an adjunct professor of Fudan University and Huazhong University of Science and Technology and an advisory professor of Tongji University and South China University of Technology. 

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